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A jetting we will go.......maybe?
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TOPIC: A jetting we will go.......maybe?
#465979
SKWEARpeg (User)
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A jetting we will go.......maybe? 5 Years, 11 Months ago  
Okay, so here's the deal.
2001 Roadie. V&H Longshots. Stock air box with K&N filter inside.
Things I'm planning to do.

I already changed the oil to the Mobile One V-Twin, with a K&N oil filter.

.....anyway.....

Remove the AIS....Baron kit coming to plug the holes.

Remove the fuel pump, and replace the needle and seat with the Suzi model 2.5. I'm going to add a filter inline between the tank and carb. I'll check the float level at that time with the upside down method in the tech article here on the web site.

Vent the gas cap....per the article here on the web site.

Change plugs...think I'll try the NGK/Iridium's.

I trimmed some off the back of the choke knob. It still touches, we'll wait to trim anymore.

I'm adding an adjustable PMS screw....Baron is sending one of those also. Those folks that have posted about adding a short piece of tubing, to make the adjusting easier, thanks....and the zip tie to the idle adjuster is a great idea to keep from losing it, also.

I'm thinking about stepping up on the main jet just a tad. I'm assuming that it is currently the 165 stock jet. When I picked up the needle and seat, I thought they also sold me a carb kit that had the bowl gaskets etc(that's what I asked for when the sales guy was shaking his head like he understood)........I know now there is no such kit(that'll teach me to look in the bag next time), but what they sold me just happened to have a 167.5 Main(Mikuni) in it.......I already had a Barons jet kit coming, I'll wait for it before I start.

The bike falls into the running lean category at this time I'm pretty sure. I didn't know it at the time, but when I brought it home, I did a WOT test. The bike wanted to increase or surge slightly at speed(about 90)when I had slightly backed off the throttle. I thought it was a gunky carb issue at first(been running some Seafoam in the tank from the time I picked the bike up). It's also a bit slow to warm up. Not seeing hardly any soot....er...carbon... in the exhaust. Idles a bit rough when warm, and I can clean that up with just a tad of enrichment.....so..

I plan to make maybe one or two, 1 inch holes in the stock air box, low down on the trailing edge.
Other then that, I just want to try and get it so that it performs at its best in the economy department.
I'm thinking about the 167.5 main, stock pilot, clip in the fourth on the needle, and about 2.5 turns out on the PMS,....to start with. I don't have any Harley friends to keep up with, and when My wife climbs on to go to the Dairy Queen, she likes easy does it.
I'm hoping the slightly larger main, the more finely tapered needle, and the adjustable PMS will get me where I want to be in the slightly richer department.

When this and the other things are done here in the next week, I'll post up with any results good or bad, or questions.

Thanx for any input and or suggestions.

Gordon
 
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Re:A jetting we will go.......maybe? 5 Years, 11 Months ago  
Weeelllll, Somebody had been in the carb already.

It still had the 165 mikuni main, but the needle, was a slimmer tapered six notch variety. The clip was in the third notch down from the top....the blunt end. I left the pilot jet alone. The PMS screw, was exposed, and was set at about 3 3/4 out.

I altered my plan a tad, and stepped up to the 170 Mikuni main from the Barons kit, and used the new Barons needle with the clip in the forth notch down from the blunt end.
From the pointy end, its spacer(silver washer), plastic washer, clip, washer, spring, white plastic cap.
The old needle(not stock), was a thinner, sleeker....more svelte???? then the Barons, so I thought I'd try the 170 instead of the 167.5.

I replaced the needle and seat, with the 2.5 Suzi valve. Removed the fuel screen from the carb inlet(used the screw in the barons kit to get it out), and vented the gas cap per the article in the tech section.
Checked the float level using the upside down method. "Odo's. I need to fashion a bracket for the enricher, and the pumpless thingie will be done

I'm waiting for the new spark plugs(in the morning). When those are in, I'll drop the tank back on, and see whats what.

The AIS is gone. Used large vise grips to swivel the nipples around so I had something to beat against, used a long screw driver from the other side and tapped them out. Left the plugs in the freezer over night, and tapped them in the holes this AM. Plugged the nipple on the manifold, with the rubber cap in the Barons AIS kit.
 
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Re:A jetting we will go.......maybe? 5 Years, 11 Months ago  
Sounds like you have it covered.You should just have to tweek the PMS now after you ride it and warm it up.
 
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Re:A jetting we will go.......maybe? 5 Years, 11 Months ago  
Greysnake wrote:
Sounds like you have it covered.You should just have to tweek the PMS now after you ride it and warm it up.

I'll keep my fingers crossed.
I'm hoping the gentleman will post a reponse on the "FUEL PUMP" thread, regarding a possible change in the float level before I get to far ahead. He pointed out the the revised adjustment was a considerable change. I may still be on the old setting.


Thanx
 
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Re:A jetting we will go.......maybe? 5 Years, 11 Months ago  
Okey Dokey.

V&H Lonshots, with little or no baffle. Loud. There is a perforated sleeve inside the pipe...baffle? It certainly doesn't look like it'd restrict much, other then peace and quiet.
Stock airbox, with one extra 1 3/8 inch hole, drilled low on the trailing edge. K&N air filter. Crankcase vent line from the front of the rear cylinder, now vents to a cutsey chrome round filter, on the left side of the bike. It's attached to the fuel pump bracket(I saved it to mount the enricher).
New plugs. The old plugs hadn't been in all that long, but where surprisingly light tan, one almost light enough, that it didn't have any color at all. This confirmed my earlier suspicions of being lean.
AIS has been removed.
Fuel pump has been removed. Suzi 2.5 needle and seat. Stock petcock. Vented cap. 5/16 fuel injection fuel line, with the factory spring around it. Inline fuel filter(AutoZone FF1203)vertically oriented.
Carb float has been reset per the "Odo method" to the newer 04 and later setting per Yamaha revision. I haven't checked it with a clear plastic line connected to the bowl drain yet. I want to do this just to double check.

I used the Mikuni 170 main jet. Stock pilot jet(35). and the new Baron needle with the clip in the forth from the top(blunt end), and a washer on top of the clip, and a plastic spacer below the clip and a silver washer under that.
PMS is set at 3 1/2 turns out(I set it to four turns out without the airbox on, then turned it in to 3.5 to compensate for the slightly richer condition with the airbox installed. I think it could easily be backed out a little more??? I'll wait for feedback. I set the 900RPM idle, by guesstimate. Bike has a nice rhythmic potato potato sound, with a slight glitch about every five or so beats.

WOT test was fine. Rolled on the throttle, from 50 or 60 in fourth, up to 85 or 90, and let off the throttle a bit and waited. Bike maintained a constant and steady speed. No desire now to pick up speed, and nothing to suggest it was loading up because of a to rich mix.
Bike is strong in gears 1 thru 4. Now, there is a very noticeable lifting of the front end(not off the ground, though the potential may well be there) under heavy throttle. Where as before, the bike felt like it was about done at 90 in 5th, I believe it would hit 110 now without any trouble.
Engine only chuffed or coughed slightly one time, when I was shifting gears coming around a corner.
When I let off the throttle and let the motor slow the bike down, its quieter now, and the subdued popping and sputtering is gone.
I'm not seeing an idle increase or change when opening the enricher just a tiny bit at idle, where before, it would help smooth out the idle.

I checked after doing the WOT test and warming the bike up good, and there is more carbon in the pipes. I'm not seeing any smoke from the exhaust, when rolling on the throttle while the bike is sitting still.

Question,..... I think I can back the PMS out another turn maybe and it might idle a bit better. That'd put it at 4.5 out.
Rather then do that, I could either increase the jet size, or move the clip to the 5th notch with this jet. Maybe another silver washer under the clip?
Is my thinking correct on this?
However, since I'm already seeing a slight increase in the carbon buildup in the pipes, and the WOT test is very good, should I just leave well enough alone?

Gordon
 
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Last Edit: 2012/03/10 17:09 By SKWEARpeg. Reason: mistake
 
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Re:A jetting we will go.......maybe? 5 Years, 11 Months ago  
Let me try this one more time.

Current state of the bike, is in post number four above.

When adjusting the PMS after riding the bike hard and warming it up, this is my observation.

Based on adjusting the PMS advice ...ie turn it in(lean) until it stumbles, and then turn it out(richer) until it stumbles and then go back half way. Or, the look for the smoothest and fastest idle between the two extremes, and then adjust your idle back to 900 rpm's.

The smoothest fastest idle, is alot closer to the rich end, then right in the middle at this time. Or said another way, there is more room between best, smoothest, fastest idle, and the no question about it lean stumbling side, then there is, going from best, to the rich stumbling spot.
In that area between the smooth sweet spot and the no question about it, its stumbling and running rough on the lean side, there is a lot of area, where it idles consistently, but not as smoothly as it does closer to the rich end.

About how many turns in, could be reclaimed?? by simply adding another spacer under the clip? 1 turn? Maybe a turn and a half? Should I just drop the clip to the fifth notch? With my WOT test seeming to be right where I want it, should I stay with the 170 main, or step up to the 172.5? It'd be nice, to get the PMS no more then three out.

I'd really like to only change one thing to get more room for rich adjustment out of the PMS(Not backed so far out). Right now, I could turn it to four and a half to get to the really sweet spot.

Fishing for input,

Gordon
 
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Last Edit: 2012/03/11 09:05 By SKWEARpeg. Reason: really fixed sumthin
 
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Re:A jetting we will go.......maybe? 5 Years, 11 Months ago  
The needle setting and main won't affect the idle. As for the PMS adjustment what's the temperature when you're making the adjustments? The idle is supposed to be a little rich but you're way out to the extreme. With the PMS at about 3 turns put your finger over the primary pilot air jet at the mouth of the carb on the left while idling. If things get real smooth then it's very possible there's a leak somewhere. Small chance but is it possible that the PO somehow installed a larger secondary pilot air jet? It's located under the diaphram on the left just above the coasting enricher.
 
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Re:A jetting we will go.......maybe? 5 Years, 11 Months ago  
texasscott1 wrote:
The needle setting and main won't affect the idle. As for the PMS adjustment what's the temperature when you're making the adjustments? The idle is supposed to be a little rich but you're way out to the extreme. With the PMS at about 3 turns put your finger over the primary pilot air jet at the mouth of the carb on the left while idling. If things get real smooth then it's very possible there's a leak somewhere. Small chance but is it possible that the PO somehow installed a larger secondary pilot air jet? It's located under the diaphram on the left just above the coasting enricher.

Outside air temp was 70 degrees(It is the sunshine state after all ). Bike was hot, I'd just finished the hard riding. I was burning my little pinkies, just spinning the air box screws out as well as turning the PMS(why oh why, didn't I add a piece of hose to the PMS???? )


Am I making a mistake then? I was under the impression, that the needle clip location, the main jet size, and the PMS were all kind of inter related when it came to mid range and low speed performance.
 
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Last Edit: 2012/03/11 09:30 By SKWEARpeg.
 
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Re:A jetting we will go.......maybe? 5 Years, 11 Months ago  
SKWEARpeg wrote:
Am I making a mistake then? I was under the impression, that the needle clip location, the main jet size, and the PMS were all kind of inter related when it came to mid range and low speed performance.
They are. But I though you were trying to get the best idle and the bike was running fine at midrange, low speed and even WOT. Without any air leaks the engine should be pretty much dead smooth at idle. If it takes a lot of turns on the PMS to achieve that then it's a pretty good indication that there's extra air coming from somewhere. It's probably not enough to affect cruising or WOT but enough to affect the idle.
 
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Re:A jetting we will go.......maybe? 5 Years, 11 Months ago  
SKWEARpeg wrote:
texasscott1 wrote:
The needle setting and main won't affect the idle. As for the PMS adjustment what's the temperature when you're making the adjustments? The idle is supposed to be a little rich but you're way out to the extreme. With the PMS at about 3 turns put your finger over the primary pilot air jet at the mouth of the carb on the left while idling. If things get real smooth then it's very possible there's a leak somewhere. Small chance but is it possible that the PO somehow installed a larger secondary pilot air jet? It's located under the diaphram on the left just above the coasting enricher.

Outside air temp was 70 degrees(It is the sunshine state after all ). Bike was hot, I'd just finished the hard riding. I was burning my little pinkies, just spinning the air box screws out as well as turning the PMS(why oh why, didn't I add a piece of hose to the PMS???? )


Am I making a mistake then? I was under the impression, that the needle clip location, the main jet size, and the PMS were all kind of inter related when it came to mid range and low speed performance.

======================

The circuts do overlap a bit,some people say needle clip adj doesnt affect comming off idle but i can tell you 1st hand my 06 R* stock accept for pipes had a lean stumble /soggy lean feel in transition from idle to main/cruise & when at slower cruise speeds/lower throttle position even when trying pms at 2.5 -2.75 even 3 turn out from light seat with no change .

So i put pms back to 2.5 turns out from light seat and then put a wahser under needle clip for a slight tweak richer which cleared up/fixed the lean stumple/soggy feeling lean cond when cursing at slower speeds at lower rpm/low throttle postion in the 2,000-2,200rpm range where it felt a little soggy and would stumble at times when giving it throttle that was cleared up with the slight thin washer under needle clip enrichement tweak i did.

Could have also maybe fixed it with going from stock 35 to is it 37.5 pms jet to fatten up idle circut /idle to main transition a bit too .

But since i didnt have a larger pms jet on hand i decided to go with the slight needle tweak which from my carb tuning experience thought should also do the trick too which was the case.

So no mater what your told needle clip position does in fact affect transition/fuel cruve comming off idle to lower rpm/lower load cruise fuel calibration with the stock CV carb on the R* but it doesnt affect fuel mix when the motors at a idle/throttle released.

Scott
 
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Last Edit: 2012/03/11 11:55 By scottw.
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